Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

OSS specific Linux discussion (x86/amd64)

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ossuserr
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Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:12 pm

Currently my audigy2 zs platinum is not recognized by OSS4 and also many people insist that creative products are not good for music production at least because of compulsory convertion of 44.1 to 48 on hw0 and other things. And if I can't solve the issue with successful installation of OSS4 for my card for which I opened another thread I will have to get another sound card. Lynx is too expensive. Can anyone recommend a good sound card. I mean some cheap cards like M-audio or esi juli level which will work 100% with OSS on linux.
Also i want to connect midi keyboard to the PC but how to do it? I was told that OSS does not support midi. So what is the solution to use midi keyboard when using OSS driver? Actually i am not going to use internal midi capabilities of soundcards. I plan to use midi via linuxsampler which as far as i understand loads soundfonts into RAM of mainboard and not of the soundcard. So how to connect midi keyboard to PC since OSS won't activate midi-in of any soundcards?

igorzwx
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby igorzwx » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:11 pm

ossuserr wrote:Currently my audigy2 zs platinum is not recognized by OSS4


You have ALSA loaded:
ossuserr wrote:$ lspci -vnn

Code: Select all

05:02.0 Multimedia audio controller [0401]: Creative Labs SB Audigy [1102:0004] (rev 04)
   Subsystem: Creative Labs SB Audigy 2 ZS (SB0350) [1102:2002]
   Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 32, IRQ 18
   I/O ports at d100 [size=64]
   Capabilities: [dc] Power Management version 2
   Kernel driver in use: snd_emu10k1



"Kernel driver in use: snd_emu10k1" - this means that OSS4 is not installed. You have ALSA instead.

When OSS4 is installed and loaded, you should have something like this:

Code: Select all

$ lspci -vnn
00:1b.0 Audio device [0403]: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family High Definition Audio Controller [8086:1e20] (rev 04)
   Subsystem: Giga-byte Technology Device [1458:a002]
   Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 22
   Memory at f7e10000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K]
   Capabilities: <access denied>
   Kernel driver in use: oss_hdaudio
   Kernel modules: snd-hda-intel

ossuserr
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:34 pm

Of course ALSA is installed because i had to uninstall OSS and install ALSA to have at least any sound.

cladisch
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby cladisch » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:54 am

I was told that OSS does not support midi.

This is correct.

So what is the solution to use midi keyboard when using OSS driver?

  1. Get a big pile of money.
  2. Hire somebody to write MIDI support.

igorzwx
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby igorzwx » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:25 pm

cladisch wrote:
So what is the solution to use midi keyboard when using OSS driver?

  1. Get a big pile of money.
  2. Hire somebody to write MIDI support.


It might be difficult to get a "big pile of money" for OSS4 development for many reasons.

1. The OSS4 documentation is incomplete, outdated, and often misleading.

2. The secret list of supported soundcards has not been declassified, and many drivers for "inexpensive quasi-professional soundcards" seem to be a kind of "buggy beta things".

3. The so-called "Fast resampler" is enabled by default, and, therefore, the sound quality of the default installation of OSS4 is not much better than that of ALSA.

4. OSS4 has a kind of "secret pulseaudio" inside, named "cooked mode" _http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/SNDCTL_DSP_COOKEDMODE.html

5. To disable crappy resamplers in OSS4, one may need "secret esoteric knowledge" and "third-party tools", or he has to enjoy "spartan solutions" with terminal, for example: _http://www.opensound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5783

Moreover, the OSS4 developers failed to offer any Cargo Dream, a kind of "ultimate sound quality", or "liberation of sound", or "eternal happiness with OSS4", or other sort of "utopian dreams".

ossuserr
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:31 pm

Big pile of money? We know who has those big piles of money... The same very individuals sponsor harmers controlling repositories and spoiling software ... And all those programers do what they are ordered to, otherwise they won't get enjoyable bonuses like bathing in Thailand seashore waves. The System is WELL-TUNED to most subtle details...

igorzwx
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby igorzwx » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:15 pm

ossuserr wrote:Big pile of money? We know who has those big piles of money... The same very individuals sponsor harmers controlling repositories and spoiling software ... And all those programers do what they are ordered to, otherwise they won't get enjoyable bonuses like bathing in Thailand seashore waves. The System is WELL-TUNED to most subtle details...


Let us summarize:

1. You do not have a "big pile of money".

2. You do not want to learn scripting and programming.

On the other hand, it seems that you are not deaf, and you like to share your knowledge about "sound quality".

Since you can hear the difference between "pure sound" and "digital crap", you may help other users to improve "sound quality".

Perhaps, you can make some useful tests. For example:

1. DeadBeef vs. "ossplay -R"

2. DeadBeef/Petrov vs. DeadBeef

3. DeadBeef/Petrov vs. "ossplay -R"

There are easy to perform. The same audio file (e.g. 16bit 48kHz wave) can be played with different players without any resampling or conversion.

You can disable VMIX and the "cooked mode" in /usr/lib/oss/conf/osscore.conf
Then reload OSS4:

Code: Select all

$ sudo /usr/lib/oss/scripts/killprocs.sh
$ sudo soundoff
$ sudo soundon


To verify that resampling is disabled, you may try to play an audio file of some exotic format, which is not supported by the OSS4 driver for your soundcard.
This may also help to detect "secret resamplers" or "format converters" in audio players.

When resampling is disabled, you can test "pure sound" with different audio players.
In a similar way, you can design a test to compare "FFT transform" and "DCT transform".

Each test can be discussed is a separate thread (to avoid confusion).

ossuserr
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:13 pm

Indeed you are wrong concerning scripting. Yesterday i was very angry when dozens of rascals refused to help me to make a simple script. That's why i did it myself in spite of the fact that have many other important things to do. It turns Thunar into a GUI for exact audio player and allows to sort music files in a folder as you want, the upper files are played first, the zenity interface provides chosing of files from any directory. Decoding and resampling is done only once for each file separately. That's the player one could dream of. Later i will publish it in the corresponding thread.
Concerning tests. Interesting idea to use some unusual format to detect hidden resamplers!
So far i swtiched of the cooked mode and switch on production qulity with extra precision, also i switched on vmix and some other option 2nd from the bottom to make jack support several applications though jackd turned out to be a failure probably by another reason.
As to comparing I can range quality from good to bad like: 1) exact audio player with decoding by flac (not sox!) and resampled by old FFTrate. Similar quality is achieved on some ancient foobar2000 version + kx driver + some forgotten resampler plugin for foobar2k + windows xp 2) Dead-roastbeef with DCT resampler plugin = flat sound unemotional but with the same good details. Can be compared to later versions of foobar2k + kx driver + some forgotten resampler plugin for foobar2k + windows xp. 3) Alsa + libsamplerate - the biggest crap for fat and dumb linuxoids, the products of american corporations' promotion lines, mockery at people... spitting into their faces, pardon, - ears. This crap assured me that the music i had liked in the past was crap because i could no longer enjoy it. Deadbeef without Petrov's plugin is the same crap as ALSA-based players but a bit better than vlc, mplayer. VLC, mplayer just sound dull, lacking details in mid and upper range. Gmusicbrowser sounds better than VLC, mplayer and with less distortions than deadbeef. Deadbeef's distortions occur in the high obertones. Petrov fixes them. Alsaplayer seemed to be a kind of space-giving player, like a phaser, gave wideness to sound but also gave distortions. I could not make alsaplayer work well with hw4. Also it seemd to be the most honest among linux players because it crushed on trying to play 24 bit which lets me think that it uses the cards' built-in resamplers. But because i had my asoundrc tuned to 96000 i just could not test much of alsaplayer since it could work only with hw0 which is 16\48000 but to my subjective estimations with hw0 it was cleaner than any other linux player including deadbeef without Petrov's magical reampler of course. As for fftrate with exact audio player EAP i may compare it to a good tube amplifier with the difference that the tube amplifier gives some warm sound while EAP leaves the sound more neutral at the same time adding spaciousness, that is probably called phaser effect.

igorzwx
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby igorzwx » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:58 pm

ossuserr wrote:2) Dead-roastbeef with DCT resampler plugin = flat sound unemotional but with the same good details.


Have you tried to play the "FFT converted" wave (16bit 48kHz) with DeadBeef/Petrov without resampling?

Step 1: Convert your wave to 16bit 48kHz with Petrov's FFT resampler

Step 2: Play the converted wave through the Petrov's DeadBeef plugin (exclusive mode, 48kHz → 48kHz, 16bit →16bit)

ossuserr
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:27 pm

How will you explain such a strange thing: i disabled vmix and cooked_mode as you advised, then i try to play flacs of 44100 using exact audio player but it crashes! When i play 48000 files they are played well. My soundcard natively does not support 44100 but why does PEtrov's resampler not resample them to 48000!? It seems that EAP crashes before or after the audio file reaches the resampler.
It seems that i understand a bit... The hw0 device of audigy2 zs works only with 48000 because it's equipped with DSP of such frequency. So we have a strange loop, comrade! The audio is fed into the DSP before it reaches the PEtrov's resampler in the script! It makes us think that something can be wrong with the OSS driver because first linux IS TO resample to 48000 via PEtrov's resampler and only after that to feed the resampled stream to the hw0 device. That is why it's important to activate (to get a driver for) hw4 which is not connected with hardware DSP and DOES NOT TAKE THE PRIORITY OVER BASH SEQUENCES! By the way, a perfect mechansm to spoil sound!

ossuserr
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:44 pm

And what's more, comrade! I have just opened the same files of 44100 in deadbeaf without changing any settings of OSS and the files 44100 are playing nice! What does it mean? It means that DEADBEEF either TAKES PRIORITY OVER OSS DRIVER\LINUX SECRET THINGS or IT HAS A SECRET RESAMPLER WHICH RESAMPLES TO 48000, SENDS TO HW0, THEN THE SIGNAL RETURNS TO DEADBEEF AGAIN WHERE IS PROCESSED FOR THE SECOND TIME BY PETROV'S PLUGIN. Any thoughts?

igorzwx
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby igorzwx » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:53 pm

ossuserr wrote:And what's more, comrade! I have just opened the same files of 44100 in deadbeaf without changing any settings of OSS and the files 44100 are playing nice! What does it mean? It means that DEADBEEF either TAKES PRIORITY OVER OSS DRIVER\LINUX SECRET THINGS or IT HAS A SECRET RESAMPLER WHICH RESAMPLES TO 48000, SENDS TO HW0, THEN THE SIGNAL RETURNS TO DEADBEEF AGAIN WHERE IS PROCESSED FOR THE SECOND TIME BY PETROV'S PLUGIN. Any thoughts?


Run DeadBeef from terminal

Code: Select all

$ deadbeef


Then open your 44kHz file with DeadBeef and play it.

On terminal, you may see some info about playback.
You may post it here.

ossuserr
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:22 pm

DeadBeef's output on terminal:

Code: Select all

$ deadbeef
starting deadbeef 0.6.2 [static] [portable]
server_start
searching for GUI plugins in /home/user/.local/lib64/deadbeef
searching for GUI plugins in /home/user/.local/lib/deadbeef
searching for GUI plugins in /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins
plug_load_all: scandir found 27 files
found gui plugin ddb_gui_GTK2.so
added GTK2 gui plugin
found gui plugin ddb_gui_GTK3.so
added GTK3 gui plugin
load gui plugin
checking GUI plugin: GTK2
found selected GUI plugin: GTK2
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/ddb_gui_GTK2.so
loading plugins from /home/user/.local/lib64/deadbeef
loading plugins from /home/user/.local/lib/deadbeef
loading plugins from /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins
plug_load_all: scandir found 27 files
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/cdda.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/converter.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/converter_gtk2.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/converter_gtk3.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/dca.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/ddb_ao.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/ffap.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/ffmpeg.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/flac.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/gme.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/hotkeys.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/m3u.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/mpgmad.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/musepack.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/oss_rate.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/pltbrowser_gtk2.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/pltbrowser_gtk3.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/vorbis.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/wavpack.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/wildmidi.so
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/wma.so
selected output plugin: OSS output plugin with fftrate
INFO: loading playlist Default
INFO: from file /home/user/.config/deadbeef/playlists/0.dbpl
convgui: gtkui plugin not found
plugin Converter GTK3 UI failed to connect to dependencies, deactivated.
plugin Playlist browser GTK3 failed to connect to dependencies, deactivated.
gtkui plugin compiled for gtk version: 2.16.0
selected output plugin: OSS output plugin with fftrate
oss: exclusive mode is activated!
oss: device doesn't support 0 ch output
connecting button tray signals
oss: exclusive mode is activated!
Converter: fftrate (ver. 0.9)
Input  : 44100 Hz, 2 ch (0003), 16i bits
Output : 48000 Hz, 2 ch (0003), 16i bits
Params.: delay = 53 ms, sync: ON, transform: 'DCT' - 'Vorbis'
Matrix :
        FL      FR     
FL      1.000   -----   
FR      -----   1.000   

quitting gtk
gtkui_stop completed
gui plugin has quit; waiting for mainloop thread to finish
plug_disconnect_all
plug_unload_all
stopping GTK2 user interface...
quitting gtk
gtkui_stop completed
stopping Converter...
stopping dts decoder...
stopping PSF player using Audio Overload SDK...
stopping FFMPEG audio player...
stopping Game-Music-Emu player...
stopping Hotkey manager...
stopping MusePack decoder...
stopping OSS output plugin with fftrate...
stopping OggVorbis decoder...
stopping WildMidi player...
stopped all plugins
all plugins had been unloaded
messagepump_free
plug_cleanup
hej-hej!

igorzwx
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby igorzwx » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:37 pm

ossuserr wrote:And what's more, comrade! I have just opened the same files of 44100 in deadbeaf without changing any settings of OSS and the files 44100 are playing nice! What does it mean? It means that DEADBEEF either TAKES PRIORITY OVER OSS DRIVER\LINUX SECRET THINGS or IT HAS A SECRET RESAMPLER WHICH RESAMPLES TO 48000, SENDS TO HW0, THEN THE SIGNAL RETURNS TO DEADBEEF AGAIN WHERE IS PROCESSED FOR THE SECOND TIME BY PETROV'S PLUGIN. Any thoughts?


ossuserr wrote:DeadBeef's output on terminal:

Code: Select all

$ deadbeef
starting deadbeef 0.6.2 [static] [portable]
loading plugin /home/user/soft/deadbeef-0.6.2/plugins/oss_rate.so
selected output plugin: OSS output plugin with fftrate
oss: exclusive mode is activated!
Converter: fftrate (ver. 0.9)
Input : 44100 Hz, 2 ch (0003), 16i bits
Output : 48000 Hz, 2 ch (0003), 16i bits
Params.: delay = 53 ms, sync: ON, transform: 'DCT' - 'Vorbis'
Matrix :
FL FR
FL 1.000 -----
FR ----- 1.000



What is the problem?

Petrov's plugin was loaded.
"exclusive mode" was activated
Petrov's DCT resampler converted 44kHz → 48kHz and played it.

Everything is OK

The "SECRET RESAMPLER" is Petrov's DCT resampler. It is not secret.

Perhaps, you may test Petrov's DCT resampler with "exclusive mode" [DeadBeef].
It may improve sound quality.

ossuserr
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Re: Choosing a soundcard to use with OSS

Postby ossuserr » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:42 pm

Can you explain why deudbeef (DB for short) can play 44100 input and EAC cannot? Both use Petrov's resamplers...


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