oss4 not compilable on gentoo

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ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:27 pm

Maybe you can ask Petrov to hack alsa for gen2 OS to disable the secret resampler, include Petrov's resampler system-wide on compilation level with USE flag and create his own portage layer.

igorzwx
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby igorzwx » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:50 am

ossuserr wrote:devices/subdevices can be addressed directly as hw:xy devices easily from programs supporting it without any resampling. If Petrov means some other resampling on the level of the driver and not as external lib, then it's bad.


On Linux/Unix, the so-called "audio device" is a file, nothing more.
It is not a driver. It is not an address of a driver.

You may believe that there is "no resampling" for HW devices.
But 192kHz can be downsampled to 48kHz.
This is exactly what happens, if you are using the default settings of OSS4
_https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Open_Sound_System#Changing_the_Sample_Rate

However, you can disable resampling with OSS4 (in osscore.conf).

If you do not know how to disable resampling with ALSA, you may believe that a "symbolic address" may solve the problem.
If it does not help to improve sound quality, you may try something else.

igorzwx
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby igorzwx » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:24 pm

EXPERIMENT

Hypothesis: If ALSA downsamples everything to 48kHz, this may affect sound quality, and, therefore, 48kHz with OSS4 may sound better than 192kHz (or 96kHz) with ALSA.

You may try to verify this hypothesis with pcm_play

Code: Select all

$ pcm_play -w
Wave systems:
 alsa    - "Advanced Linux Sound Architecture"
 oss    - "Open Sound System"

Wave devices [alsa]:
 default    - "Default PCM device"

Usage: pcm_play <file> [-w] [-s name] [-d device]
               [-c numb. of channels] [-b numb. of bits]
               [-f frequency] [-l] [-n] [-k] [-i] [-h]


See → _http://www.opensound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5789

OSS4 (48kHz → exclusive mode):

Code: Select all

$ pcm_play *.wav -s oss -d /dev/dsp -c 2 -b 16 -f 48000 -T fft -n -e


ALSA (192kHz → HW device):

Code: Select all

$ pcm_play *.wav -s alsa -d <HW device> -c 2 -b 16 -f 192000 -T fft -n


If 192kHz sample rate is not supported by your ALSA driver, you may try 96kHz

Code: Select all

$ pcm_play *.wav -s alsa -d <HW device> -c 2 -b 16 -f 96000 -T fft -n


To make it easier, you can use the "Exact DXD Player" script
_http://www.opensound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5792

If 48kHz waves with OSS4 do sound better than 192kHz (or 96kHz) waves with ALSA,
it might be difficult to believe that "direct addressing HW devices" disables resampling with ALSA.

To test ALSA, you may also try to play the same wave at different sample rates (48kHz, 96kHz, etc).

Code: Select all

$ pcm_play *.wav -s alsa -d <HW device> -c 2 -b 16 -f 48000 -T fft -n


You may also try different bit rates (e.g., 16bit, 24bit, 32bit).

If 48kHz or 192kHz, do dot make any difference with ALSA, one may presume that ALSA does downsample everything to 48kHz.
In this case, 192kHz may sound even worse than 48kHz.

AUDIO SAMPLES (for testing):
DXD waves can be downloaded here: _http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
Do not use 192kHz and 96kHz waves and flacs, because they are "digital crap" produced by Weiss SARACON Sampling Rate Converter
See → _http://www.opensound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4423

NOTE: It may so happen that ALSA drivers are so crappy that they produce crap regardless of resampling.
In this case, you can use ALSA without thinking about resampling.

Code: Select all

$ pcm_play -h |& grep Exclusive
 -e            Exclusive mode (for OSS and DirectSound)


Notice that pcm_play does not support "exclusive mode" for ALSA.
The reason is simple. It is impossible. You cannot disable ALSA resampling and "software mixing".

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:45 pm

Do not use 192kHz and 96kHz waves and flacs, because they are "digital crap" produced by Weiss SARACON Sampling Rate Converter
Do you mean wavs and flacs only from that site or that wavs and flacs are generally crap?

You may be right about that alsa hidden resampler in hw_devices-files. But what's the point doing so? Can't those files just supply unmodified unresampled stream to the low-level alsa driver module (address as you call it)? By the way i think you may be right that it was not fftrate 192000 which improved sound when i employed it but just the fact that i employed p16v device instead of emu on the card.

All this makes one sad about the state of sound on linux oses if that resampling takes place. Well i don't have very good hearing. This testing must be done by some people with 20000 hearing. But generally i feel like sound is dead. What makes it dead i can't explain. I may only state that on windows kx driver + kernel streaming in foobar + some high quality resampler by the japanese guy in foobar produced some lively result. But on linux if feel like there is an antialiasing filter which makes sound less crisp. Perhaps the main reason is that now i mostly use emu dsp and not p16v. Anyway i wish you progress in developing OSS. As soon as it starts supporting dssi-vst and linuxsampler I will be the first person to switch to it.

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:01 pm

I was told that ardour supports vsts. So if ardour had a powerful notation module like musescore and support for OSS we could do without the chain musescore + jackd + linuxsampler|dssi-vst + jackd + ... + jackd ---> Alsa. Unfortunately, ardour is for live recording mostly. Still another possibility to pursuade mscore developers to make internal synth with sf2, sfz, gig support, vsts support + OSS support, thus avoiding jackd and alsa. So far there is no possibility to move to OSS for production.

igorzwx
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby igorzwx » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:12 pm

ossuserr wrote:"Do not use 192kHz and 96kHz waves and flacs, because they are "digital crap" produced by Weiss SARACON Sampling Rate Converter"
Do you mean wavs and flacs only from that site or that wavs and flacs are generally crap?


Morten Lindberg said that the Weiss SARACON Sampling Rate Converter was used for downsampling.
It does produce sound distortions, see sonograms here: _http://www.opensound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4423
Morten Lindberg claimed that those distortions are audible.
They should be audible (see sonograms), and they are audible indeed.
Although, of course, you may not hear any difference with ALSA.

Morten Lindberg 2L - Norway
_http://www.merging.com/news/use-cases/morten-linderg-2l-norway

ossuserr wrote:Well i don't have very good hearing.


Signs of Hearing Loss
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpht9L3s9G4

Hearing Loss and Dementia:
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Js4vPv1eEQ

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:26 am

hearing loss and nerve tissues loss is the normal process of ageing. As to hearing the normal values are: 0 - 20000, 35 - 16000, 50 - 12000 HZ.
Hearing loss is due to not only mechanical damage of film inside ear but also damage of hearing receptors. There are some genetical predispositions for faster or slower loss of hearing + real environment like noisy place of living, work, bad loud music, etc.
Dementia is nerve tissue loss|damage but in brain.

igorzwx
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby igorzwx » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:00 am

ossuserr wrote:hearing loss and nerve tissues loss is the normal process of ageing. As to hearing the normal values are: 0 - 20000, 35 - 16000, 50 - 12000 HZ.
Hearing loss is due to not only mechanical damage of film inside ear but also damage of hearing receptors. There are some genetical predispositions for faster or slower loss of hearing + real environment like noisy place of living, work, bad loud music, etc.
Dementia is nerve tissue loss|damage but in brain.


Are you going to say that hearing does not depend on brain?

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:05 am

It depends on what you understand under "hearing". Bethoven was deaf and yet what a beautiful music he made. Mozart had very acute hearing and yet composed some shit. So there are two types of hearing: one is the muscial ability|imagination, ability to manipulate notes in the head which is like maths, second is the range of heard sounds. What i meant is the range of heard sounds. It affects mostly enjoying music and yet affects composing too. You won't compose music with much highs when you get older since you won't just hear all those highs.
Deafening from age is a real disaster. First strong impact is felt at about 17-18 years old. I suppose by that time you lose already 2000 hz. I remember talk with a semite violinist at that age. He complained that he had lost some hearing ability by that age. As a teenager he could deistinguish 1\3 of a tone but at 17-18 he could only already distinguish the halftone. Another example for you is the pianist Richter who complained that as an old man he could not distinguish even two tones. Watch the movie about him. Hearing loss is irreversible and not cured and pianists seem to be especially strongly affected due to loud sound. So after 40 years old you should not expect people to differentiate mp3 from wav since their hearing makes only 15000 hz which is the top of 320 bitrate. But what still matters is lack of distortions which may occur on any segment of 20000 hz range. That's why good hardware and recordings are more enjoyed in any age.
Also most enjoyable is not equal to most flat response. There are some harmonics in the music waves which can make sound more enjoable like they value for example lamp amplifiers.

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:12 am

What do you think about audiophile 192 against juli? They seem to have same dac\adcs.

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:25 pm

In this thread i mentioned wineasio. Though i don't see any application of it for my needs on linux, still i would like to inform musicians how to install it on gentu. You need to compile from source downloaded from its site and not from portage. You must read the readme file in the source folder for installation instructions.
There are all signs that linux's developement has stalled - many applications are not installable from portages ...

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:29 pm

Advise concerning use of dssi-vst: if you have run a vsti via it and want to close that vsti, don't close it by closing the window, the window may be closed but the process may still remain. Go to the terminal and press ctrl-C for closing.

igorzwx
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby igorzwx » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:26 pm

ossuserr wrote:Bethoven was deaf and yet what a beautiful music he made.


Yes. But this does not mean that every deaf ALSA musician is a kind of Beethoven.
It might be obvious that deafness correlates with stupidity.
That is why, perhaps, ALSA users firmly believe in the truth of their stupid theories about sound.

In fact, ALSA users tend to claim that they do not hear the difference between HiRes audio of 192kHz and "digital crap" of 48kHz, because human beings cannot hear above 20kHz.
This is the obvious proof of their stupidity.

It is true that a blind person may not see the difference between High Definition videos and low resolution ones. A normal person can see the difference, but this does not mean that he can see very small objects, and his eyes can work like a microscope. High resolution digital photos might be a better example _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_resolution
Are you able to see such small details?

The same is true for HiRes audio. If one can hear the difference, it does not mean that he is able to hear above 40kHz.

If you continue to spam this forum with the lunatic ravings of ALSA theorists, you might be banned for stupidity.

ossuserr wrote:What do you think about audiophile 192 against juli? They seem to have same dac\adcs.


1. Read Juli@ User's Guide (in the attachment)
2. Try to find out what the DirectWIRE router is (pp. 41-42).
3. Ask devs whether this feature supported by OSS4
(it may not be supported, because the driver is said to be "beta").

If you fail to find devs, you may ask nuc for help.

The BEST soundcard for your audio computer
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckZkh8XaJJU

BEST soundcard for your audio computer Apr 2015
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhmjmZ7zBJU
Attachments
Juli@ User's Guide.pdf
(3.04 MiB) Downloaded 1558 times

ossuserr
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby ossuserr » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:31 pm

Of course, of course, J are the most clever ones... Who argues. Everyone is stupid and deaf except our dear comrade Igorwiz.

According to my point of view there is no difference between 44.1 and 192000 if recorded with the same quality. And people mostly enjoy mp3 right? And sometimes they switch on lovely music in soap operas on tv whcih is enjoyable on tv speakers. So ...
What makes music enjoyable is not the sampling rate. Many factors interfere, including tuning for example which is in charge for harmonics. This is a big science and art of tuning, some people spent their whole life on finding the ideal tuning, for example IS Bach.

As for your OSS which i definitely not use i still want to propose for those who use or want using it to try the following methods:

1. As per ardor's devs it's possible to compile it with vst support (goodbye dssivst!), Also they claim ardour can work as a resampler (using LS plugin as backend). So if you can compile last version of ardor using jackd1 you may try using ardor instead of LS and perhaps all channels will be visible in patchage. Since mscore's jackd module fails under oss + jackd1, try denemo.
2. You may convert all your soundfonts to sf2 using extreme sample converter under wine and use them inside mscore which has internal resampler supporting sf2. And use portmidi for midi input.

igorzwx
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Re: oss4 not compilable on gentoo

Postby igorzwx » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:57 pm

ossuserr wrote:What makes music enjoyable is not the sampling rate.


What makes music unenjoyable is low sample rates, that is, low resolution of audio files.

A "digital photo" of low resolution may not look "natural", or "real". It may not be enjoyable.
LowRes audio may sound unnatural, artificial, or "dead", it is not enjoyable. This is exactly what you told about ALSA:

ossuserr wrote:Well i don't have very good hearing. This testing must be done by some people with 20000 hearing. But generally i feel like sound is dead.


You cannot hear above 20kHz, but you feel that ALSA sound is dead.
As simple as that.

Is it really difficult to understand such simple things?


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